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Sarah Young:
I've seen, really more than ever, these last few years is the difference between acceptance and understanding and agreement. And I think in our world the last few years, we've been in a place where largely there's this process of do I agree with you or not? And based on that, can I understand you or not? And based on that, can I accept you or not? And I think, we're seeing, in some cases, a complete lack of acceptance if we do not agree and therefore cannot understand. And so something that I've been really curious about, which of course is easier said than done, especially with these really charged issues, is how can we start from a place of acceptance and from there try to cultivate understanding, And from there we might really still agree or disagree and our disagreement might be really, really, really strong, but we're coming from a place of acceptance and understanding.

Andy Kitson:
Hi everyone. Welcome to The People Everywhere show. I'm Andy Kitson, my co-host is Niko Skievaski. In this episode we talk with Sarah Young. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Zing Collaborative, which is a leadership development company, and she helps high-impact, high-integrity organizations, teams, and individuals elevate their leadership capacity. Sarah is also an author. Her book, Expansive Impact, came out earlier this year, and it is a gorgeous and useful book, just full of leadership tools. So this is a juicy episode. Sarah doesn't just tell us about her leadership framework. She well, she shows it to us in action. She and Niko have a coaching conversation about one of Niko's recent leadership challenges, rolling out Redox's response to the Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade. This conversation takes us deep into themes that are really at the heart of this podcast. So, building a culture of belonging, the role of leaders in fostering culture, both setting direction and also making space for other voices and how to navigate this all when the real world makes things complicated. If you like this conversation, we are planning a live event, our first-ever live event with Sarah in November. Sign up to our mailing list for details. You can do that at People Everywhere Show.com. All right, that's enough for me. Let's talk to Sarah.

Andy Kitson:
Sarah, welcome to the show!

Sarah Young:
Thank you. Great to be here.

Andy Kitson:
To start out, you wrote a book?

Sarah Young:
I did.

Andy Kitson:
Expansive Impact.

Sarah Young:
Yes. Yes.

Andy Kitson:
I'd like to understand a bit more about the title, Expansive Impact. You seem to be someone who is very careful with words and intentional about which ones you choose and like why did you choose those two?

Sarah Young:
Thanks for saying that. So Impact has always been a big throughline of my business and the way that I think about impact is really in the small micro-moments. So kind of the idea that we are always having some kind of impact and ideally we are starting to pay attention to what that is and be conscious of the kind of impact that we're having. So that's always been something that's really interesting to me and just working with people to figure out how they want to have an impact and, and what that looks like, so I think of that as sort of the, the what is making, making an impact or the doing part. And then when I think of expansive, a big throughline of my work is looking within ourselves to figure out who are we at our core and how can we stretch into the most expansive version of who we are, so we don't have to change who we are at our core, but we can expand into sort of the biggest, best version of ourselves. And as part of that expansiveness, I also think of that as stretching into some of the dark corners that maybe aren't as easy to look at, but we're expanding into those as well for a more well-rounded approach to leadership. So when I think of expansive, I think of that as the being part so kind of expansive and impact we have the doing which is the impact, and the being which is the expansive part. And hopefully we can bring those both together in terms of how we are going out into the world.

Niko Skievaski:
It's, it's amazing hearing you reflect on this, because I think of the time that we've spent together. And for our listeners, Sarah was, I guess you were the last manager that I had, I think, back about my career progression. And one thing I always really took away from our one on ones was how you always made me feel really confident in myself. And so when you talk about being true to yourself and running with that and not trying to change it and it makes me think about the anti-marshmallow campaign, off the book. Which is really all about, yeah, how do you lean into what's true to yourself and use that to grow your impact? And that's, that's what I really enjoyed about working with you was you were always just like, yeah, you're right, how can we use that? Rather than a lot of other experiences I've had with coaches that are like, well, maybe you should think about it differently. It was more like just momentum building, and I found that to be really unique about, about your style. And would you say that that's kind of like a core, core tenant of the book?

Sarah Young:
Well, thank you, thank you for saying that. And that's cool that, to reflect back to that period of time. So thank you for that. Yeah, I would say that is a core tenet of the book and it doesn't mean that we don't have things to, edges to round out, so to speak, or things to grow or stretch into. But I think for the most part we are at our best when we are true to ourselves. So it probably notices, in the book there's this theme of who are we at our core and how can we look in the mirror and be grounded in the most authentic version of who we are. For me, I have an integrity to myself and to others and to kind of this greater good. And I think it's really hard to be an integrity to ourselves if we, if we don't feel like we can be who we are. And, you know, especially early in my coaching practice, one of the most common things I heard from people when they would come to me for coaching is, you know, I feel like I have to be a different version of myself at work than I am at home or in the rest of my life. And that's such a, that can be a really exhausting way to operate because we're sort of having to become someone we're not. So yes, I would say that is a key theme of the book, that looking inward being who we are, and then hopefully building upon that in a way that has a positive impact for everybody involved.

Andy Kitson:
Is that a place that you just personally started out like since childhood that was always just your, your outlook and focus, or is there more of a story of development for yourself to get to that place?

Sarah Young:
Oh, that's a really good question, I think. If we go way back, I think my natural tendency actually when I was little and something I really had to work, work on myself is maybe not as much that. So I think my pattern in my life and my family and different things is to kind of not make waves and be a just myself to, to be as harmonious as possible to the situation at hand. And when I think about my time in the corporate world, there were times when I did that that it really wasn't serving anyone. And those are some of the instances that I would go back and do over differently if I could, where I could stand in my own truth and be true to myself and also be in service to the thing around me. So I would say, I've actually really had to work on that. I think if we look at those three buckets being in integrity to ourselves, to others, and the world around us, I would say sometimes my default has actually been to be an integrity to others over myself, and that has really gotten me in a lot of trouble. And so the thing I've worked on balancing out is starting with within, which is really what you see in the book, and then from there we can do those other things as well.

Andy Kitson:
Can you expand a little bit on kind of like the concept of being integrity with yourself, versus the world versus, versus others?

Sarah Young:
I mean, if we were to boil it down and I'm curious what you guys think as well. Like for me, I think about it as can I sleep at night? Like, can I do what I'm going to do all day, and can I feel really good about my choices when I go to bed at night? I also think about it as like, if the thing we are doing in private would become public, would we feel okay about that? So the way we are choosing, you know, you mentioned choosing our words, like how do we feel about that? And do we feel, do we feel like we can rest easy, so to speak, with how we have conducted ourselves? Not to sound morbid, but I also think about it as if something really terrible were to happen. Do we feel good about the way we've left things? So our relationships, our conversations, not holding grudges, things like that, so those are some examples. When I think of integrity, what that means to me, I don't know what you guys think, I know it's a word that's used a ton, so.

Niko Skievaski:
I think what you touched on, like being true to yourself and the thing that has been missing for me is kind of like figuring out what, what I mean by myself, like what are the core sort of values or tenets of it. And I went down a path of trying to figure that out. But recently I've actually just been leaning into how does my body feel?

Sarah Young:
Yeah.

Niko Skievaski:
Because I feel like we, we know sort of innately, even though if I can't put it into words or like document, these are like Niko's three values that I live by. But if my body feels a certain way, if I start feeling heat built up or something in my gut, then that's a sign that I might be out of integrity, or that a decision might be that I'm grappling with one way might feel better than another. And yeah, that's, that's kind of how I've been thinking about integrity lately.

Sarah Young:
I love that. And I don't know about you, Niko, but for me, when I have made a mistake, like when I have improperly maybe valued what integrity looks like to someone else over myself, if I look back, there was always a physical cue, there was always a gut sense that I just dismissed or didn't pay attention to. So I love that clue that you're tuning into. What about for you, Andy? What do you think?

Andy Kitson:
Yes to both of what you just said. Like, there's definitely a physical component to it that, yeah, it's either somewhere in the gut or the shoulders or like it or just like, not being able to sleep at night. And then like those different perspectives of like if you have to explain this to somebody you respect or if you think about your 90-year-old self looking back.

Sarah Young:
Yeah.

Andy Kitson:
Or even say like once even more motivating for me is just like, what would my 16-year-old self think of, of me doing this? Yeah, being grounded in those other perspectives where you're not quite subject to the pressures of the moment and are able to just think a bit more clearly about who do you want to be and how do you want to live in relation to the world.

Sarah Young:
I love that.

Andy Kitson:
So for the book, could you expand a bit? Walk us through the framework and how you think about Expansive Impact?

Sarah Young:
Yeah, absolutely. So high level, the framework starts from within and then as we journey through the book, we start from within, we're looking within ourselves. And then as we move through the invitations, we're kind of moving into conversation with others and we're interacting with others. And then toward the end, we are bringing it all together and creating from all the things. So that's the way I think about it at the highest level is starting, starting from within and then into conversation and then into teams and groups and ideally the world around us and then the six invitations. So the first invitation is, is be compassionate, lead with love. And that one was back and forth in terms of whether it would make the cut. You'll notice in the book it's a little shorter. Yeah, it's a little shorter than the other invitations. And there was a lot of debate about whether we would weave that one in or whether it would be its own invitation. So it did make the cut as its own invitation. But what's funny is for some groups, they have been very nervous about that one. So I've had to explain like it's not about love, romantic, squishy, but it's more about connection and relationships and that sort of thing, so that's the first one. The next one is be conscious.

Andy Kitson:
What tipped you into deciding to make it its own standalone invitation?

Sarah Young:
I think it was going back to Niko when you mentioned the anti-marshmallow campaign, because when I think about what have been the most defining moments of my journey through life and professional career, that anti-marshmallow campaign moment was one of those most defining moments. And for folks who haven't read the book, the anti-marshmallow campaign was really this moment when I received feedback that I was too compassionate and too soft and basically like a marshmallow. And so I needed to go on the anti-marshmallow campaign, and, and I did that for a while and I went down that road and it felt really crappy. And that ultimately was part of why I decided to pivot and start my own business. And the whole theme was about compassion. And when I think about the core of my work, if I really had to boil it down, it's about looking at ourselves and having self-awareness, and it's also about connecting with others in a way that feels authentic to us. So it did make the cut just because this idea of leading in the moments and genuinely caring about people as humans, that's really what it boils down to, which sounds so simple, but that's really the big takeaway from that, that first pillar. So it did make the cut for that reason.

Andy Kitson:
I love that. It feels like a lot of that is foundational to just the concept of integrity.

Sarah Young:
Yes and yes.

Andy Kitson:
Yeah. And being able to have that then as we can build the rest on makes, makes a lot of sense.

Sarah Young:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, so yeah. The next one is be conscious, lead from within, which is all about looking at who we are and what are we good at? What are we not so good at? What are our values and how do we lead with those values and put them into action? So that's a big piece of this idea of looking in the mirror and really, really trying to deepen our understanding of ourselves. The third one is be clear, lead in relationship to reality, which is all about leading in relationship to what is actually happening in front of us rather than a story that we have in our head or some kind of assumption that we're making. This is also when we look at, you know, when we're talking about integrity. And Andy, you said like your 90-year-old self or people that you care about, this is also where we look at who are the people whose opinions we really care about and how can we use that as a gut check? We also think about how to set things up for success in terms of creating clear containers, which I know is something that you guys are really passionate about as well, and creating clarity upfront so that there's less ambiguity down the line. The fourth one is be curious, which is lead by looking for clues, which is all about listening expansively and asking good questions. Here, we also bring in a coaching approach to our leadership. The fifth one is be courageous, lead with truth from the heart, which is all about telling the truth with heart, having conversations in a way that feels true and authentic, but also is kind. And then the sixth one is be creative, lead with agility. And this is all about bringing it all together and really creating from whatever's happening and also looking at how we can create ease and flow, which again, I know is something that you guys are passionate about and lead within whatever context is around us. So that's a real quick high-level summary.

Niko Skievaski:
I'm so glad that lead with love made the cut because it seems so foundational to all of that. Like being compassionate and caring about the whole person allows, I feel like it's the only way to allow you to connect with people beyond just their work selves and really understand why, why they are there, why they bring themselves into, into the job or the project or whatever you're trying to lead. And without that, it seems, it seems hollow to try to lead without, without connecting with the full human. So I appreciate that it came in the book.

Sarah Young:
Thank you.

Andy Kitson:
I think we should try putting a little bit of this into practice. If you're up for it?

Sarah Young:
Sounds good!

Andy Kitson:
So Niko's got a real-life example that would love to, to talk through with you, Sarah, you can, you can offer some, some coaching and I'm going to step back for a little bit and let you two take it from here.

Sarah Young:
That sounds great. Amazing. So Niko, tell me a little bit about the topic that you'd like to do some coaching on.

Niko Skievaski:
Yeah, so this was, this was something that I grappled with at Redox recently, and it surrounds the Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade. And to back up a little bit, our culture at Redox, we strive to create an environment where every Redoxer can, so what we call people who work at Redox, Redoxers can bring their authentic self into the work environment as much of that as they, as they would like to. And a big piece of that, you know, we were talking about compassion, is getting to know people beyond the work that they do and understanding more about why they do it and who they are as humans, we have a value of belonging. And I think it's the, it's something that we always strive to do. And so knowing that the Supreme Court would likely overturn the Roe v Wade decision and the intense emotions that would bring up in a lot of people, we felt the need to, to do something about that, to speak out, to create a policy, to do, to do something. And I guess what ended up happening was me working with our interim head of people at the time, we drafted a policy around basically we thought up what could a company do in this scenario if the right to abortion was taken away in, especially if it was given back to the states to figure out like what could we do to support people who potentially would need that healthcare? And that's, that's how we look at it, is that it is healthcare and we want to improve access to it, which even, even in and of itself is a controversial view potentially. So we drafted a policy, a benefit saying that if someone who works at Redox needs or wants to, to pursue this, this type of health care, then we would support them in that by, by financially supporting them, by reimbursing for expenses associated with, with the travel, you knoew, if they need to leave their state to get the procedure done. If they need to take time off work, if they would like to bring their partner with them or significant other to, to support them in that like we would, we would support that. And so we put a benefit in place and so we would reimburse up to up to five grand, which we actually copied from another company who we saw put it out. And we're like, that seems like a reasonable thing to do. And so we had drafted this benefit and then when the decision came down, I remember it was a Friday morning, we, like by 9:30 that morning we put out our response to that benefit, which was meant with a lot of strong feelings within the organization. A lot of people surprised at how fast we moved on it, there was a lot of support. I think a lot of the outspoken support were from women who felt really strongly about it and there was also people who thought negatively about what we did, and that we hadn't gotten a lot of input from the company on it, we hadn't listened that much. So that, that was, it was a struggle in and of itself to, I guess, open up and listen to views that were very different than my own and really support an environment where we can, I guess the goal is that I want to create an environment where those people, even if they feel strongly that this is the wrong benefit and I still want them to feel like they can belong at Redox. I believe that having that diversity of thought is important and I don't want people who, who are pro-life or just anti-abortion to feel like they can't still thrive in our environment. And I think by putting this benefit out it made, it made them feel that way, at least that's some of the feedback I heard from a few people. That was the situation kind of day of and the week following, and I'm going to pause there. We took some action after that, but just to sort of get off the microphone for a sec to see if there's anything you would ask or add to that.

Sarah Young:
Well, first of all, I just want to say thanks for sharing that. And I just want to acknowledge, I want to acknowledge your courage in sharing that example, because I think it's an example that a lot of people can relate to, whether for this particular topic or for anything that we've been navigating the last several years. And this scenario is actually something that I've been hearing a lot from people where perhaps the company did something that was well-intentioned or in support of what felt like it would be a viewpoint that would support many or most or whatever it is. And then the people who maybe were not in that majority or not in that group felt that same way to say, actually, I don't know if I belong here, whether it's for my political beliefs or my beliefs about vaccines or abortion or whatever it is. So I just, I just, first of all, want to say thank you for your courage in sharing this example. I'm curious, Niko, for you, it sounds like at the end of the day, what I heard you say is that your goal is to create an environment of belonging where every Redoxer can thrive, and that includes all Redoxers who might have diverse viewpoints or different viewpoints on various topics. Does that feel like an accurate kind of capture of what matters to you most?

Niko Skievaski:
Yeah, absolutely. And even that goal, I think, people were challenging in this issue because there were some people when we actually, kind of the next step after we put out this benefit was I held listening sessions with basically whoever wanted to talk about this. And some people were sharing their views around how, how they thought it was wrong, other people were sharing views saying, like even listening to people who have a, who are, who are pro-life, even listening is wrong. Like these people actually don't, shouldn't belong in our culture, which I fundamentally disagree with. And so it was really painful to hear, like from both sides, how on one side the benefit was potentially against certain group of people's morals or ethical perspectives, and on the other side, even listening, listening to those perspectives seemed wrong to, to others. So I found myself in this position of not really knowing what to do and questioning, because there are certainly views that I would say do not belong within the culture. If someone is acting out in an openly sexist or racist way or something like that, I would say that that does not belong and that's behavior that we would take action upon, right? But this one, I wasn't sure, like the beliefs of people who are pro-life, it doesn't, it didn't seem like it was antithetical to having productive and creative and open and inclusive culture within the organization. So it sort of rocked the foundation of my beliefs around what does diversity mean within an organization and how can we be inclusive of different viewpoints if those viewpoints are sometimes so at odds that they can't even be talked about?

Sarah Young:
Absolutely. And I notice I don't know if anyone listening is having this experience, too, but I noticed just within my own body, like I actually am having a response to, to what you're sharing, Niko, because I think it's a really tough spot that we're in as a society right now where we have differing perspectives to the, to the extent that we don't actually want to listen to or allow those different perspectives to exist. So I think it's really interesting that you heard that during the listening sessions. You know, something that that I talk about in the book and that I've seen really more than ever these last few years is the difference between acceptance and understanding and agreement. And I think in our world the last few years, we've, we've been in a place where largely there's this process of do I agree with you or not? And based on that, can I understand you or not? And based on that, can I accept you or not? And I think, you know, we're seeing in some cases a complete lack of acceptance if we do not agree and therefore cannot understand. And so something that I've been really curious about, which of course is easier said than done, especially with these really charged issues, is how can we start from a place of acceptance and from there try to cultivate understanding. And from there we might really still agree or disagree, and our disagreement might be really, really, really strong. But we're coming from a place of acceptance and understanding. So I'm curious for you, Niko, what's your current relationship to this topic? So it sounds like this happened, you rolled out the policy, you did the listening sessions, you got a lot of really diverse feedback on, on the sessions and through the sessions, as you think about the topic, not necessarily what, what you're doing about it, but your relationship to this topic, what's here for you right now as of today, this moment? How are you thinking about it?

Niko Skievaski:
That's a good question. I feel like we did the right thing and I'm going to kind of skirt the question because I think that maybe in talking about kind of where we are as a company might help me get better in touch with how I feel about it. But the listening sessions, that was one of the most exhausting, it was probably a week or two where I was doing one or two or three listening sessions every, every day. That was so exhausting because I really tried to pull myself away from the issue itself and just understand and be curious about where those perspectives come from and what impact it had on people's motivations in their, in their work. And there were a lot of people, too, who were just giving the feedback that they don't want their work environment to be a place where they have to even grapple with such issues, which I was thinking like, heck, it'd be great if I wasn't having to grapple with these issues either, it'd be. But it also felt impossible to, to not, to not grapple with them. But through the listening sessions, I think we actually got some really great feedback from people, not only in how we could have approached the issue better in the future, potentially having listening sessions before we put out a benefit, but we actually got feedback around the benefit itself from people who disagreed with the benefit that I think will actually help improve it. So right now, you know, as we looked at some of the feedback, we are considering extending the benefit to include not only travel and support for abortion, but also support for people who are actually trying to actively procreate, people who maybe need IVF or who are looking at adoption and supporting that as well. And so that idea came from listening to people who thought that the, that supporting abortion was too one-sided and too, too extreme. And so the story that I wanted, the conclusion that I want to get to at the end of this is for us to actually take that feedback, improve the benefit, and have it be a story of why diversity of thought within a company, with the behaviors of inclusion, of listening to them actually makes, makes for better outcomes, and in this case, a better benefit than, than we had sort of come up with on our own without having to, without listening. So I want that to be the conclusion, and I'm still hoping that that's, that's where we get to, and we're kind of in the middle of it right now. There's also a lot of legal and regulatory things we have to be thinking about. So our people team is certainly busy and been trying to figure out what's possible. But like, that's, that's the story I want to tell at the end of this. And then I think if I can, I will feel really good about, about this as an example of, of why diversity is important and why those people still belong and why their voice matters. So that's what I hope we get to, and I think we're still a bit in the middle of it.

Sarah Young:
Absolutely. Yeah, it's really, really powerful example. I'm curious, you know, for you, Niko, as you've been working through this. So I'm really curious about systems and what we can learn about systems, especially through situations like this. So, and it sounds like you're already doing a lot of this with how you're thinking about diversity of thought, inclusion, and that kind of thing. But so in this particular case, there's the, there are the people who are in favor of abortion-related benefits for the company, there are people who are not in favor of abortion-related benefits from the company, there are the people who have differing views on differing spectrums, but within that, there's you as the facilitator of the listening sessions and also a member of the executive team. There's the executive team or the chief people officer, whoever was rolling out this decision, so there's all these particles related to this massive issue and question, that kind of thing. I'm curious for you, as you look at this from a systems perspective, kind of like from what I call the helicopter view. So you're flying above you're looking down below at all of this, all these moving parts, all these people, all these really heated perspectives, you know, the societal issues, all these things, what do you see from up there that maybe you, that is harder to see when you're the one in the chair and the listening session? Like what new information can you see from up there about the system as a whole?

Niko Skievaski:
The first thing that came to mind was in my helicopter, on my, on my high horse, looking down, on, upon this was just this feeling of like, can we just all be a little nicer to each other? Can we be more compassionate? Yeah. Can we separate this issue from the human and, and connect at that, at that human level? So, so that's that was kind of the first thing that came to mind as you described that. But the second thing was, was really just like looking at all of these pieces, how do we actually engage these particles? I like to call them particles. How can we engage these particles to be able to, to openly share how they feel about something like this so that we can form policy as an organization and, and help everyone feel like they're supported, that they don't have to you know, that working at the company makes them feel more whole as a person and supported and nurtured and, and that they matter. I think that's the challenge that I would love to from a systems perspective figure out how to, how to do. We also, at the same time as this either conveniently or inconveniently formed a, we call it the belonging Council, but it's a group of ten people who sort of volunteered to, to be a group of people to grapple with things like this. And this, this council was not in place before we put out the benefit, it's in place now. And when I think about like what systems are necessary to, to help engage those particles, I think that's a, that's a core piece of it is, we kind of have a, yeah, we have a group of delegates from different parts of the company with a pretty good diversity and perspectives and as well as teams and tenures across the organization and backgrounds. So I'm hoping to lean on that group more in the future to kind of engage those particles as part of the system in place to first off, not make it feel like it's, it's all on me to figure out, but also to, to ensure that we are actually using the wisdom of, of every single one of those particles to come up with something better than, than I could have on my own.

Sarah Young:
That's great, I love that. And, and maybe a final question is, we're processing this a little bit in terms of next steps. So with, and you've been touching on this, Niko, but with what you have gleaned from that helicopter view, you mentioned this need for people to be a little nicer, more compassionate separating the issue versus the human, connecting on the human level, engaging the different particles, you're doing that through the belonging council. From that helicopter view and everything you can see from up there, what do you feel is needed from you as a leader to help to create that?

Niko Skievaski:
I think first off is potentially just describing that vision for how important, how I want us all to work together. I don't think I've done that enough and really put that into words of like, what is the goal of like, like why do we make an effort to get to know people in the company beyond, beyond the work, right? And we're a remote company, right? And I think that you have to sort of go above and beyond to create human connection in a remote company. Like you have to create schedule time in the agenda to do that because we don't get the moment of walking to lunch and the water cooler conversations and stuff like that. And so, so I think describing that, that vision and in the purpose around getting to know people around connecting is important. I think enabling these sorts of structures like the belonging council is important as well. So making sure they have the time and resources to actually do this work is something that I probably have the power to influence. And then also creating the invitation for people to, to talk to me about these sorts of things I think is also something I can, I can do as a leader. I don't think I've ever had those sorts of listening sessions, if I think back on my, on my leadership experience, I've never found myself in a situation where people are spilling their guts like that on an issue that was really largely not related to work, but just related to someone being a human. And I think that that allowed me to see different people in and understand them better. But I think it was important for me to understand, like the importance of people to have their views acknowledged by a leader in the organization. And I never push back on anybody, like I was literally just listening and making sure that they felt comfortable in sharing. And I think I learned a lot from, from that, not only in this benefit itself, but, but just in the importance of letting people feel heard and not, not to be shallow with that comment and saying that all I had to do is listen. But like I actually felt like I learned from their point of views and have more compassion for, for various points of views along, along that spectrum. So creating, creating a culture, an environment where, where more people can have open conversations with each other, I think is something I can, I can probably influence.

Sarah Young:
Beautiful. Yeah, that's amazing. So in terms of things I heard you say, you know, number one, describing the vision, sharing the vision, the why behind it, the purpose. Number two, enabling some of those structures, not just creating them, but through time and resources, and then this idea of the invitation. So the invitation for people to talk about things, be heard, and have their views acknowledged.

Niko Skievaski:
Yeah.

Sarah Young:
Beautiful. Anything else, you look like you're processing or thinking. I'm curious what's coming up for you as we just sit with everything we've talked about and what you want to carry from here?

Niko Skievaski:
As you're repeating it back to me, I was thinking about the balance in being vulnerable in the work.

Sarah Young:
Mmhmm.

Niko Skievaski:
And, and how it can go too far sometimes. Because if we're, I think Brené Brown called it floodlighting. For if we're too vulnerable, it can feel overwhelming, like a bright light being shined in your face. And so just. I was just making a mental note of thinking about how to how to help people strike that balance of understanding how, well, it's almost like, the strength of the relationship is if you have a really strong relationship with someone, then you can bring more vulnerability and therefore in a full public setting, in an all hands meeting or on the general channel in Slack, like we cannot have strong relationships with every single person at a large organization. And so I don't know, there's sort of a way to, I guess I'm processing it as I speak, but like figuring out how much vulnerability is appropriate in each situation and how to throttle that appropriately. That's, that's kind of where my mind was going when you were speaking about because I was like, well, but also we don't want an organization where everyone's thoughts and fears and desires are shared openly with everybody all the time. I think that would be a first off, unproductive organization, but also just not a, not a fun environment to work in so, I think there's a balance to strike there.

Sarah Young:
Absolutely. And that's something I might leave you with, Niko, as a, as a potential conversation with your leadership team is how do you guys want to think about this moving forward and what is your stake in the ground as a leadership team around these kinds of things? Because, you know, that's something I'm really curious about too, just in terms of companies and leadership and how we're taking a stance on things. Because on one side we have like the example that came out of base camp, a couple other companies have done it where they've said, we're actually not going to talk about this stuff at work because work is a place for work. And to your point, Niko, some people actually don't want to talk about this stuff at work, so that's one stance. And then there's this other stance which is maybe the complete opposite, which is bring these things to work. And we actually maybe even have a political perspective as a, as a company or an organization. And then what's that middle ground and what's the Redox version of that, and this idea of vulnerability. And the other thing I might add to that is respecting individual choice around that, because everyone might not want to talk about these kinds of things at work. And so creating the conditions in which you sort of have a stance as a leader and as a company around this is how we think about these kinds of things, and this is how we approach these kinds of things. And then also allowing people to kind of opt in or out of conversations as they feel comfortable doing so. So that's just something I'm curious about as a potential takeaway for you all as a leadership team as far as how are we thinking about this more broadly for this, but also maybe other things that might come down the line, other kinds of issues or topics, things like that.

Niko Skievaski:
Yeah, Yeah. I think, I find it really helpful to think about those extremes of how companies have responded because I don't think I certainly don't agree with creating a company culture where it's not okay to talk about issues that are really important to people because I think it's important for us to build trust with each other. And we do that by bringing a little humanity into the working world. So I think like that base camp and I think was a coinbase example's a little too extreme. But I also don't think that Redox is a company that needs to, for certain issues, we don't need to be out there leading and trying to push the way that society works. Like, look, we don't need to be. I think about companies like Patagonia and environmentalism, like they're leading the way with environmentalism. Like we don't need to do that for environmentalism. With Redox, we should probably be in that extreme for the cause that we care about directly related to healthcare and access to data and use of data in healthcare. But when it comes to these other issues, like I don't think we need to be a leader and changing the world around them, but we do need to create an environment where people within the company can and feel supported. And so I feel like we probably need to fall into middle ground and that's something to, I feel like, we need to get clear on, where and how we want to support people in that place of we're not at either extreme of that, and I love how you brought in that individual perspective because some people will just want to opt out of those conversations and that and we should respect their right to do so and not pressure them into trying to have these types of conversations with their colleagues if they, if they don't want to.

Sarah Young:
Oh, that's so good. And I love the way you said that, Niko, and I think this would be such an awesome invitation for others listening too. So within your company, like where are the areas where you do want to be leading the way? You want to have a very clear stake in the ground, you want to take a stand, you want to fight for the thing, whatever it is for your company or your team or even as an individual, like what is that for you? What I heard you say is it's healthcare related. That's where you want to be leading the way. And then for all this other stuff, you want to support people to be able to feel the way they feel and do what they need to do and have diversity of thought and opinions, but you don't need to be leading the way on all the topics for all the things. And I think that is so powerful and for companies to be clear on that, that has such an impact for who, who we're hiring, who we're bringing in in terms of creating alignment with that. But then also for the people on the back side that are already in the company, this is something I've been really curious about the last few years, because all of us, the three of us, we live in places where there's a very clear political leaning that's one one way. And something I've realized over the years is the people who are not in that political majority, in the places that, the places that we live, they actually have felt very isolated at times. And especially over the last couple of years. I've had people ask very specifically, do I belong here? Can I still work here if I vote this way or don't do this thing or do this thing or whatever it is? And so I really love what you're saying, Niko, in terms of how can we create clarity on where we want to lead the way and then how can we support people for all the rest of the things but not need to have a leading stance, so to speak.

Niko Skievaski:
Sounds even better when you say it back to me.

Sarah Young:
Amazing.

Niko Skievaski:
I'm glad we're recording this because I feel like I need to relisten to it and take, take the follow ups out and actually go and work on some of this stuff. It's almost like there's a document or something that I need to create that can be part of the cultural foundations of the company that says this is what the company stands for, this is where we, we take a lead or where we're trying to change the world because every company is trying to change the world somehow, even if it's by bringing their product and service to the world like it changes, it changes it a bit. And I think being clear about what are we trying to change, who are we trying to change it for, and then also being clear about what we're not trying to put a lot of effort into. And not not to say that if you as an individual who works at that company, like if if, you know, environmentalism, for instance, is a is a big issue for you, that doesn't mean that you don't belong here, but that's just not the focus of Redox.

Sarah Young:
I love that. That's amazing. So many good things, I'm curious, not that you need to have this perfectly distilled, Niko, but if you were to kind of bring this home in terms of what's something you want to take forward, I know you said maybe go back and listen, pull up the follow ups, a document, some of these things you mentioned, what's one thing you want to carry forward from this conversation in terms of action or additional reflection?

Niko Skievaski:
Yeah, I think that that question that you asked about as a leader, what can I do? I was actually surprised in the three things I pulled out around clarifying the vision, supporting the structures that are in place and potentially creating more structure, and then creating a culture where there can be more inclusion of different sorts of thoughts, like those are three sort of tangible things that that I know I have a lot of influence over that I can go back and work on. And some of them are more tangible than others, like creating that vision is, I envision an actual document, something written that can be communicated, but some of the other ones are almost like, I just have to look out for opportunities.

Sarah Young:
That's beautiful. Thank you, thank you again for being willing to share that example. I think it's really, really powerful. And like I said, I think something that a lot of people can relate to, whether for this particular topic or others that we've grappled with over the last few years. So thank you.

Niko Skievaski:
Thank you.

Andy Kitson:
Could I ask a few questions about.

Sarah Young:
Absolutely.

Andy Kitson:
Just, kind of like your mindset as a coach, what you're trying to do and like kind of more of like a, I think it'd be interesting to talk about kind of the craft of coaching given that we just had this conversation with Niko. Yeah, and see kind of like what we can learn from it and sort of like a meta conversation way.

Sarah Young:
Absolutely.

Andy Kitson:
So like what was your goal entering that conversation? How do you, how do you think about like your goal and how you engage the coach?

Sarah Young:
So I would say, you know, my first goal is just to be curious, to understand more about Niko's topic and what what he's going through. So really that's the first goal. And then the second goal is to support, support Niko in relationship to his topic. So when I think about how do I want to show up as a coach, it's really in service to Niko and Niko topic and coming from that place of curiosity.

Andy Kitson:
What are the things that you're looking for or listening for?

Sarah Young:
Well, I guess even before that, one thing that I find and found even in this specific situation is there's a skill in coaching that we call self management, which is setting aside our own stuff. You know, I talk about it a lot in the book in terms of getting rid of the stories in our head, setting those aside so that we can be present with what the other person is saying. And I noticed that Niko was sharing the fact that there was a perspective that people who had a certain view like we shouldn't even listen to them, like we almost like I understood it as we should not accept their view as worthy, that was actually personally triggering for me because I think that my personal opinion is that's how we've gotten into the place we've gotten was so much division in the last few years and it's been so painful, and I've seen the way that that has played out. That's all my own stuff, that's all my own narrative that came up for me when Niko shared that. So the first thing I had to do is kind of just sit with that. I noticed, you know, we talked earlier about what was happening in our body, so I noticed in my body my heart was kind of racing when Niko shared that particular perspective. And then my approach was just sit with that, notice that, breathe through that, and then come back to the present moment with Niko. So it's like, I can't be genuinely curious about Niko and his topic if I'm like in my own head, in my own stuff. So just coming back to the moment, coming back to presence and then coming back to like, how can I learn more? I'm curious to understand more. So I think presence and trying to come back to that present moment, for me, that's like the gateway to curiosity because we can't be present if we're somewhere else or if we're like in our own head with our own stuff, or if we have our own conclusions. Like, I think that's a crap perspective, you know, that's ridiculous. That's not very curious, so those are a couple of things.

Andy Kitson:
I noticed you did it like a lot of summarizing and kind of echoing back what you thought you heard? I think a lot of people's natural response, kind of like hearing Niko would be to offer, like here are things that you could try or have you thought about this? Yeah, it could just expand a little bit on like why, why, why that summarizing that going back.

Sarah Young:
Yeah, I mean, in this case in particular, to me, this is such a powerful and sensitive topic that's extraordinarily important. And so for me, if I'm going to engage with Niko and his topic and suggest anything or ask anything, I want to be really certain that I have accurately heard what he has told me. So I think for me, ensuring that accuracy and ensuring yes, I am actually hearing the thing that Niko is saying in the way that he intended to say it, that feels important always, but particularly in a case like this. And you know, when we think about being curious or showing up as coaches, that's something that we can do with our team members or whatever it is to just make sure, like let me just make sure I really understood what you said. Let's check that first. Let's align on that first and then we can move forward. Because otherwise, like you said, Andy, we can, we can kind of start down a road and we're like, oh, shoot, we're actually down a road that wasn't actually, we took a wrong turn and we just kept driving versus maybe we should, of course-corrected a few minutes back.

Niko Skievaski:
I find that to be super helpful on the receiving end because a lot of what I'm trying to explain is in situations like this is not fully baked and I'm sort of processing it as I'm talking, it,first off, gives me more confidence to be able to do that because I know that you'll say it back to me so I can kind of take another look at it. And then of course, it allows me to ensure that you're actually understanding what I'm trying to communicate and I can adjust it if I, if I actually set it wrong or it didn't come out the right way.

Sarah Young:
Yeah, absolutely. And I find, I don't know if you guys relate to this, but a lot of the people I work with, particularly in a coaching context or a leadership development context, there is a lot of verbal processing going on. And so when we reflect back, it's like, oh, did I say that? You know, it's helpful to have someone mirror for us in that way. So that's, that's a gift we can, I think that we can give to each other in everyday life, is just that mirroring, especially in those those kind of verbal processing situations like you mentioned, Niko.

Andy Kitson:
You also issued some challenges, but they weren't like direct challenges. Like I challenge you to do X, but more of like I challenge you to define a challenge, I guess, did I hear that right? And kind of like would like to hear you to talk about about that a little bit.

Sarah Young:
Yeah. I mean, one, you know, tenant, so to speak, of coaching is the idea of action and accountability. And, you know, generally speaking, the person who has the topic is the one who can come up with the action and accountability, and ideally, that's something that feels meaningful and resonant. So sometimes it is an actual action, like Niko said, he might make a document and sometimes it's thinking more about an issue, for example, vision or what does culture look like, or how do we want to think about this as an executive team? So that is a piece of the coaching process, and I would say that's something that can translate to to just everyday meetings or with leaders where we are coming to action, like what do we want to carry forward? Who's going to do it, when will it happen, that sort of thing.

Andy Kitson:
Well, should we do some rapid fire?

Sarah Young:
Ooh, sounds spicy. Let's do it.

Andy Kitson:
So what book, in addition to Expansive Impacts, do you want everyone you work with to have read?

Sarah Young:
Yeah, I think I would go back to the classic of the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, which, you know, I know it's a little bit old school, but I feel like it's just so rich with information and I feel like a lot of the books that have been written since really pulled from a lot of the foundational concepts that Cubby writes about in that book. And it's like, if we all did all those concepts, I feel like that would elevate all of us in the way of integrity and acting with character and those kinds of things.

Andy Kitson:
Do you have a favorite concept?

Sarah Young:
Well, he talks about the idea of character ethics versus personality ethics, and that is one that has been very interesting to me in the last like five or so years in the, with the increase of social media and influencer culture and all these things. And the idea is that basically character ethics came first and that's where we see like morals and, and ethics. And I think I think stoicism would be bucketed in there. And then after character ethics came personality ethics, which is like I think of that as the posters on the wall, like you can do it, you, know, that kind of thing. And for me, the way I interpret all of that, like my lens on it is, if we can act with character ethics, it might be a little bit slower, it might be a little less flashy, but that will prevail in the end versus some of these things that are flash in the pan of the moment, personality, ethics, like concept of the day, that kind of thing that fits in with personality ethics that might not have as much longevity. So that's something that I think about a lot, just in terms of the way I hope to approach my work in business, things like that.

Niko Skievaski:
What non-business hobby or pursuit most influences how you approach work?

Sarah Young:
I think in general, just spending time outside and pulling from nature and the way that there are so many things that translate between work and nature in terms of noticing and presence and tapping into our surroundings, that kind of thing. The gardening thing has been really interesting because you have to, you have to be patient with gardening. And I've been sort of laughing at myself because I have noticed in myself that sometimes I'm not that patient. So for example, I really want to know how the carrots are doing, and so I will just pull them up. And if they're not done growing, I have this tiny, tiny little carrot. And that's such a good reminder for a life in business. Like, you can't just pull up the carrots whenever you want, you have to actually wait for the carrots to grow, so that's been really good. And I've also been thinking a lot about just the cycles of gardening and how that ties to business and leadership. And I've been thinking a lot lately about translating those ideas to my business and my work, which is like, what are the things I want to plant? What are the things I want to water and cultivate? What are the things I want to weed? And then what are the things that I want to harvest? Like what's ready to come to fruition? So for me, that's been kind of a fun way to think about work and business in a way that feels very like flowing and tuned into like seasons and cycle of nature.

Andy Kitson:
Love it, so what's the book, movie, or TV show from childhood that influences your worldview today?

Sarah Young:
So I am the worst person in the world when it comes to like movies and TV shows, and pop culture. But one that comes to mind is and this is not from childhood, it's from like early, early professional years. But there's a book called Leadership the Eleanor Roosevelt Way. And in there, she had this line, which is that she to be in the role she was in, she had to have thin, she had to have skin as thick as a rhinoceros hide. And when I was in some of my very challenging situations in the corporate world, that that was something I came back to all the time, having skin as thick as a rhinoceros hide, so that's one that has really stuck with me.

Niko Skievaski:
And a difficult line to say.

Sarah Young:
Yeah, exactly.

Niko Skievaski:
You got through it though.

Sarah Young:
Thanks.

Niko Skievaski:
Okay, so a hypothetical here. If tomorrow, for some reason, you couldn't do what you need to do right now, you had to choose something new to do for work. What would it be?

Sarah Young:
I think I would have a flower shop or flower offering of some sort. So growing flowers, I'd have to work on my ability to do so because it's not going so well this year, but growing flowers and then bringing them together in bouquets in some form.

Niko Skievaski:
I could totally see that.

Andy Kitson:
Sounds ....

Niko Skievaski:
Sure as young flowers.

Sarah Young:
Yes, Yes. Thank you, Niko, you're so good at branding.

Andy Kitson:
So those were the rapid fire questions. Any parting words for the audience, Sarah?

Sarah Young:
You know, the one thing that comes to mind is just I feel like there's so much going on right now. And people many people have been holding a lot for the last few years. And when I think about the energy of that, it's like tight. So we've been talking about tuning into our body and I feel like the energy of the last few years has resulted in an energy where people are gripping very tightly. And in some ways we have to, right, because there's a lot going on and we have tight timelines and deadlines and all these things. And so something I've been thinking about is just in light of that, looking for opportunities where we can hold things loosely and not have to grip so tightly and where we can be committed but not attached and work toward good outcomes and doing the things we want to do, but looking for opportunities to hold things a little bit more loosely and in service of a bit of a collective exhale. So that's one that just I've been thinking about a lot in the context of the last few years.

Niko Skievaski:
Oh, I needed to hear that.

Andy Kitson:
Beautiful place to lay in the conversation. Thanks so much, Sarah, it was, it's a delight.

Sarah Young:
Thank you, guys.

Andy Kitson:
And that's the show! Thank you, Sarah and listeners. If you want more, more Sarah, more time just hanging out with Niko and me, again, we are planning our first ever live events for November of 2022. For details, go to our website and sign up for a mailing list. Our website is PeopleEverywhereShow.com. If you liked the show, please leave a review. If you have feedback or suggestions for guests or you just want to say hi, send us an email at hi@PeopleEverywhereShow.com. We'd love to hear from you. We'll see you next time!

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